Hawkins Talks Netbooks in First Post Foleo Interview
The Investor's Business Daily newspaper has published one of the first interviews with Jeff Hawkins since the Foleo cancellation last year. In the article the IBD asks Hawkins about his views on the current netbook market and they also go into his experience with the Foleo and some of the reasons behind its non-introduction.
It was clear Foleo had technical issues. It was a first-generation product. We'd have to launch it and then do another gen within a year. And that's a big commitment of people and dollars.
It was a strategic decision to pursue a different approach. I don't think they made a mistake. We haven't seen the outcome of that decision yet. It really was not acrimonious at all. It was just business.
The interview touches on a number of interesting topics. It also reveals that Hawkins has not had much of a role at the company has founded of late, preferring to spend most of his time on his neuroscience work and at his new startup Numenta.
While not an active employee at Palm he does not write off the possibility of taking another shot at the Foleo concept. Stating "And I'm a believer in it. And I'd love to end my design career at Palm with a success there."
Palm execs have previously stated that they may eventually release an improved version at some point in the future based on Palm's next generation platform.
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Unfair comparison with netbook market
A laptop computer needs a REAL OS, and THAT is why the Foleo was so bad - it did not have one. It's about the PLATFORM, not the form factor.
RE: Unfair comparison with netbook market
Foleo had ZERO Garnet (or earlier) legacy code within. It ran a fully cutomized version of Wind River Linux platform and would have, at best, been a one-off device:
http://www.palminfocenter.com/news/8779/palm-teams-with-wind-river-on-foleo-linux/
WR's Linux on the Fooleo is NOT the basis of Palm's Nova initiative.
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p
RE: Unfair comparison with netbook market
Pat Horne
Fooleo
uh......Fooleo's problem was beyond technical issues. the whole concept was wrong.
http://discussion.treocentral.com/showpost.php?p=232872&postcount=23
hubris is fatal.
RE: Fooleo
Paying my annual PDA update tax to Palm since 1997.
RE: Fooleo
2. Fooleo was horribly underpowered. Underpowered hardware and crippled, nearly function-less (no e-mail client!?!?!) software is a baaad combination.
3. Nearly ZERO built-in functionality. A <$300 EEE 2G Surf is also kinda under-powered but it still is fully expandable compared to anything else in its price range and, aside from limited storage, has very robust hardware. The Fooleo couldn't even play fullscreen video or come with a standard mp3 player app. The Fooleo was circa 2004 PDA hardware dressed up in laptop trappings. The EEE is a midrange laptop from 4 years ago that's been greatly downsized. HUGE difference there.
4. Palm arrogantly assumed users want to go back to fumbling with 2+ devices. And even more arrogantly assumes users will splash out for a $600 Fooleo + a $300ish Treo + monthly data plan. There's nothing wrong with built-in, seamless smartphone/Treo integration. But the Fooleo should have been FULLY functional as a stand-alone device. Had Palm sold the Fooleo at, say, $199 or given one away for nearly free w/ purchase of a Treo it MIGHT have had glimmer of hope.
5. "We'd have to launch it and then do another gen within a year" That's life in the computing/electronics industry nowadays, bubba. What a naive comment. That kind of thinking is precisely what got Palm into their current mess. They STILL want to milk aging/tired products bone dry instead and measure product life expectancy in years instead of months. They haven't "gotten it" since, oh, 1999 or so. Of course Samsung/Sony/Acer/Asus/HTC/Lite-On/Nvidia et al would like to see higher margins, less competition, and longer product cycles. But they keep on innovating and making quarterly/seasonal upgrades and competing. Palm still tries to get by on marketing fluff & smoke 'n mirrors "zen".
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p
RE: Fooleo
RE: Fooleo
But also, please note, that Hawkins in 2003 was a part-timer already, at least according to Hawkins; he didn't have much time to waste, I imagine.
RE: Fooleo
Let's see...Palm snatched up the dying HS in June '03. They just rebranded the Treo 600 and kept on milking that cash cow, dragging their feet and playing shell games with the PalmSource spin-off before releasing the mildly revised Treo 650 in October '04. My guess is that Hawkins was fiddling around with Numanta (founded in early '05) stuff and fiddling with the Fooleo concept for several years.
What I want to know: Was the LifeDrive or the Fooleo the "secret third business" hinted at years ago ?
http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=7999
I still stick to my theory that the Fooleo and the LifeDrive either started out as the same device and/or as complimentary sister products (ie 2 stages of the "child" technology he mentioned in the above article). Or the Fooleo was going to be the LifeDrive's successor device but they had to jettison features (gigs of onboard storage, multimedia etc) in order to make it cheaper/smaller. They certainly share a few common specs (CPU etc). At any rate, the LD & Fooleo ended up as stillborn demonspawn from the loins of the Hawkins incubus (make what phallic styli jokes you'd like here!) instead of any kind of "child" technology.
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p
RE: Fooleo
nah, lifedrive and fooleo were always two totally separate concepts IMO.
lifedrive concept was "mobile manager".
fooleo concept was "mobile companion".
two different animals.
RE: Fooleo
And we have a winner in the Why Foleo = FAIL! Contest.
RE: Fooleo
Actually, the Fooleo required it's own data plan - so that's TWO data plans! Seems that with the price of a Thinkpad "X" series and PDAnet license you'd come out far ahead of the Fooleo over a couple years....
...BTW - No email AND having to buy a separate data plan? Is it any wonder that Palm's most ardent fans were shocked to see the stupidity of them wasting time with the Fooleo when they should be patching and improving the Treo line, as well as getting OS6 ready to go..?
Paying my annual PDA update tax to Palm since 1997.
RE: Fooleo
Pat Horne
What does the cult of Jon have to worship?
Who's to say that Jon R. is even actively doing anything at Palm? ONE leaked device shot or 30 second NOVA demo would garner Palm months of at least cautious optimism by the teeming masses.
Again, I point to the utter lack of anything other than Ed's generic enthusiasm and vague comments about "buzz from other circles" from that link you posted recently.
My weekly fearless prediction:
IF there is ever any kind of future Palm OS II "whatever", it'll be because ALP and Nova are going to eventually end up as one single, hybrid (mutant?) OS with some kind of Garnet VM cobbled on to it...FrankenLinux?
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p
RE: What does the cult of Jon have to worship?
I think.
Actually, I'm not sure where I read that but I think that's what they have to worship right now.
I think.
RE: What does the cult of Jon have to worship?
'Course, that same slide show mentioned that Samsung/Orange were going to have an ALP phone out this year, too, so...
RE: What does the cult of Jon have to worship?
We have on record from the WSJ that Rubinstein made an 11th hour change to the Centro's keyboard that made it easier to read outside in direct sunlight.
From the article:
"He asked product managers to look at details that hadn't been discussed before, such as whether the Centro's keyboard could be easily viewed in bright sunlight."
Supposedly, he may have also been responsible for that little ridge on the back of the GSM version (but not the CDMA version) that elevates it slight off the desk so the speakerphone doesn't sound muffled when the device in on a desktop. I think I read somewhere else that he may have mandated putting PTunes Deluxe in ROM on the Centro (at least the 3G versions of it-I don't think the GSM Centros have it standard) so users could stream live music.
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p
RE: What does the cult of Jon have to worship?
On yer knees and start worshipping!
RE: What does the cult of Jon have to worship?
Give it a rest already. You'll have an iPhone as an Xmas gift and will forget all about Palm.
Look: Ooooh, manga!
http://tinyurl.com/62sjjs
RE: What does the cult of Jon have to worship?
If this "haptic keyboard" emulates hardware keys well enough, and I can get the equivalent of my mandatory applications running on the Treo to run on this.... maybe I'll finally have BES access and support AFTER the sale...
Paying my annual PDA update tax to Palm since 1997.
RE: What does the cult of Jon have to worship?
- http://www.boygeniusreport.com/2008/08/10/live-video-of-htcs-dream-android-phone/
Lousy video, cool phone, not bad OS visuals/minimal-shown-functionality.
Looking forward to seeing the HTC phone with Nova next!
RE: What does the cult of Jon have to worship?
It doesn't feel like real keys, it's just irritating. Plain and simple.
-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a
Foleo 2009
"Many men stumble across the truth, but most manage to pick themselves up
and continue as if nothing had happened."
- Winston Churchill
RE: Foleo 2009
The question is....would giving the Fooleo any more hardware oomph make it bigger? It'd certainly make it costlier! I think Palm's learning the hard way how brutal those razor-thin margins are with the Centro and that's a high-volume device. Anything Fooleo-esque is going to be a relatively niche item for Palm no matter how you slice it.
I just think that cannot run XP/Vista will be a hard sell for Palm or anyone. Instead of jumping in with another PDA, I'd rather see Palm gradually "grow" into such a device. Maybe first do a 320x480 Treo, then a MID Nokia N-series type glorified PDA with Nova, then maybe a larger tablet machine and THEN do a Fooleo 2.
P.S. What are the problems doing "real" work you allude to by the EEE & Wind? If you mean an EEE 7xx series, then yes, it's more of a novelty/emergency web/e-mail machine than a travel workhorse. But I find that with just a bit of adjustment, I can touchtype remarkably well on my 1000H.
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p
RE: Foleo 2009
i'm skeptical that the mass market wants a notebook-type device that runs anything other than a windows or apple OS with real MS Office. i also think that this mini-notebook market is a tiny niche that's already being filled. i don't see what palm brings to the table.
fooleo was so poorly conceived and so poorly implemented, that i really have to question hawkins' and colligan's ability to lead this company out of the abyss.
after all of these missteps, and after that infamous "PC guys aren't just going to come in here..." quote, how has Colligan kept his job??? yet ed zander gets pushed out?
RE: Foleo 2009
There's still plenty of room for someone to step up and demonstrate how an on-the-go laptop OS should be done.
Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 -> Treo 650 -> Crimson Treo 680
RE: Foleo 2009
Boom. UR right. I was both dissappointed and interested in the Foleo release. The things that it actually did were the things I mainly needed. Sounded quick and easy and that is not even on the radar of today's desktop OSes. Maybe Palm is bringing the mighty Nova to bear on a FoleoTwo. Hehe. :-D
Pat Horne
RE: Foleo 2009
Apple, anyone?
Seriously, M$ should have ALL available hands furiously working on a cut-down version of Windows 7/Vienna for netbook-style machines..and I don't just mean shoehorning native multitouch support onto it. I have a feeling M$ is going to make a big push to get Vista onto netbooks once the dual-core Atoms are out in a few months.
I think a successful, world-beating netbook is best created by someone who is a hardware specialist (is Asus, Acer, HP etc) without an additional "hidden agenda" like Palm had with the Fooleo (sell more Treos + tethering plans from their carrier partners).
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p
RE: Foleo 2009
"Many men stumble across the truth, but most manage to pick themselves up
and continue as if nothing had happened."
- Winston Churchill
RE: Foleo 2009
There used to be a market for such a device. When sub-notebooks were still $1300 and up, a $400 sub-note using Windows Mobile, with a 6-7 inch screen and 8-10 hour battery life would I think have found some traction with users. However, you just can't manufacture such a beast cheap enough now to make up for not running a full OS. The main costs are no longer the CPU or the Windows license, it's things like the LCD and battery.
Palm is better off doing what they appear to be now, which is letting the Foleo die quietly. Sure, the sub-notes could use an improved interface, but that interface is going to have to run on top of XP/Vista or some other kind of desktop grade OS, with compatibility for desktop programs.
Sync = Bad
putting the FOOL in FOOLeo
i just played with this at Best Buy. NICE PRODUCT!!! especially for only $449!!!
Asus - Eee PC with Intel® Celeron® Processor - Black
Model: EEEPC900-BK039X | SKU: 8905973
Our Price:
$449.99
Product Features
* Intel® Celeron® processor with 900MHz processor speed
* 1GB DDR2 memory for multitasking power
* Note: Optical drive not included
* 8.9" WSVGA TFT-LCD widescreen display with 1024 x 600 resolution
* 16GB solid-state disk hard drive; shock-proof design
* Intel® GMA graphics with shared video memory
* Built-in 1.3MP webcam and microphone make it easy to video chat with, send video mail to or videoconference with friends, family or co-workers
* Built-in 3-in-1 media reader supports Secure Digital, Secure Digital High Capacity and MultiMediaCard
* 3 high-speed USB 2.0 ports for fast digital video, audio and data transfer
* Built-in high-speed wireless LAN (802.11b/g); 10/100/1000 Mbps Ethernet LAN (with RJ-45 connector)
* Weighs only 2.2 lbs. and measures just 0.8" thin for lightweight portability; lithium-ion battery
* Stylish black case finish
* Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition operating system preinstalled; software package included with Microsoft Works and Windows Live
* Intel, Pentium, Celeron, Centrino, Core, Viiv, Intel Inside and the Intel Inside logo are trademarks or registered trademarks of Intel Corporation or its subsidiaries in the United States and other countries.
RE: putting the FOOL in FOOLeo
I told you and Mike Con that the EEE 9xx & 1000 series were nice products!
And the 900 series still has the "old/small" keyboard that's tough to type efficiently on. Wait 'til you try out the MSI Wind or the EEE 1000 keyboard!
Although I personally would not buy one with SSD-based storage, especially the hideously slow 16G 900. For right now, I am tenatively awarding the EEE 1000H my personal "gadget o' the year" award. I imagine a slightly ligher/thinner version with a dual-core Atom and a stripped-down Vista installation on it would be a fine little machine in 6-9 months.
The EEE 904 (1000 formfactor but with a smaller LCD) & 1000HD would also be superb basic, lower-cost machines for those who don't need Bluetooth or Atom CPU peformance/battery life (quite overrated IMO).
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p
RE: putting the FOOL in FOOLeo
yeah...puppy seemed a little slow, but i wasn't sure if that was due to the device specs or because of best buy's shit wifi connection and/or the need of a "reboot" after a million in-store fondles.
RE: putting the FOOL in FOOLeo
1. why would anyone buy a fooleo over this?
2. am i going nuts or did you just edit your post?
RE: putting the FOOL in FOOLeo
The Fooleo would never have stood a chance! A <$299 EEE 2G circa 2007 has more inherent functionality, multimedia capability and bundled software than a Fooleo at any price. Other than the few Palm apologists would've snatched a few of them up and then ranted & raved like madmen at how it was THE thing to have, I cannot imagine anyone purchasing one, especially at $400-$500.
Well, the CPU in the 900 is not the problem. It's that they use a very, very slow single memory module in the cost-reduced 16G version. It really bogs down under XP. Nevertheless, it's adequate for basic web browsing, e-mail, Office doc work etc, especially if you upgrade the RAM. There's nothing wrong with the 900mhz Celeron-M CPU in the 900, btw. In some apples to apples instances, it's actually faster than 1.6ghz Atom that's running way underclocked 99% of the time to save battery power.
IMO netbooks are still better served by conventional hard drives for the next year or two.
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p
RE: putting the FOOL in FOOLeo
Knock it off, you twat.
Gekko, wtf do you live that it's only NOW you're getting to fondle an Asus?! Do we have to wait for 2009 til the 1000 gets to your trailer park area?
Here, let me show you what the 1000 look like, so you'll know:
http://tinyurl.com/6x6leb
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Not an active employee
Yeah, he's not active, alrightee!
Let go quietly of the Cult of Jeff and move on to the Cult of Jon.