The Foleo Imbroglio Editorial
Ross Rubin, director of industry analysis for consumer technology at market research and analysis firm The NPD Group, has posted his latest weekly Engadget blog editorial article "Switched On". In this week’s installment (the first of several about the Foleo), Ross' discusses the segmentation of several camps of naysayers that have sprung up on one side of the Foleo fence; power users who prefer maximum Windows-based portable versatility and power no matter the cost, thrifty types who feel that the same amount of money spent on the Foleo ($500-$600) could be better spent on a low-end Wintel machine and "mobile minimalists" who refuse to deal with the clutter and inconvenience of multiple devices.
Of course, the Foleo has its own group of staunch supporters who prize the Linux-based, lightweight, instant-on device like the Foleo.
Next week’s Rubin segment promises further discussion of the above user types as well as the implications of the Foleo’s Bluetooth DUN implementation and whether the world even needs a “smartphone companion”.
Ross Rubin’s full blog can be found here. PIC’s comprehensive Foleo area can be found here.
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Floptards
Subject headline says it all.
RE: Floptards
PDA's Past and Present:
Palm - IIIxe, Vx, M500, M505, Tungsten T, TX
Handspring - Edge, Platinum, Deluxe
Sony - SJ22
Apple - MP110, MP2000, MP2100
RE: Floptards
and:
> ...Any Claudia Shiffer Foleo sightings yet???
Oh gawd, the minister is probably photoshopping like mad already..
RE: Floptards
Of course, the Foleo has its own group of staunch supporters who prize the Linux-based, lightweight, instant-on device like the Foleo.
Cause we all know that any Linux supporter is going to be happy to trade his lightweight Thinkpad running Ubuntu with Beryl or Compiz as a window manager for the inflexibility of the Foleo's ...ahem... window manager.
Seriously though, despite my resentment towards Palm for disappointing me again and again and again and again and again and again and again (and again!), I wish the Foleo luck - it could be a nice thin client in the enterprise. Here's a presentation that might make you think differently about think clients - http://it20.info/files/3/documentation/entry20.aspx
USR Palm Pilot 1000 --> Palm Pilot Professional --> TRG SuperPilot --> Palm IIIc --> Palm V --> Palm M505 --> Palm M515 --> Tungsten T|2 --> Treo 600 --> LifeDrive --> iPhone
RE: Floptards
RE: Floptards
Any Claudia Shiffer Foleo sightings yet???
Since the lid of the Folio has all those bumps and curves, there might be something interesting to work with. :O
(Sorry, you caught me in a moment of weakness.)
Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/
RE: Floptards
You have moments of strength?
SV, I apologize for my insensitivity. I forgot you wouldn't know about that.
Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/
RE: Floptards
Its failure is self-evident. Why waste words, time, and electrons?
mobile minimalists
- sight-challenged speed-typists
- computing-skill-challenged emailers
The sight-challenged speed-typists are Palm's publically stated target market, comprised of those people who like using their Treos but who don't want to thumb-key their messages, and who would like to look at a larger screen. They could just buy a bluetooth keyboard for their Treo for $100 in order to be able to enter text more quickly, but by buying the Foleo for an extra $400, they're getting an entire computer.
The computing-skill-challenged emailers present a logical use-case for the Foleo: a simple computer that does the two things that the great unwashed masses want or need to do: send emails and look at a few websites. If this is all that you do with a computer, why should you have to put up with endless virus updates, Windows updates, browser patches, etc.? Why not just use a thin client like the Foleo and spare yourself the grief?
The big question of course is whether these two user groups will create a large enough demand for the device to be successful. Are there other use cases for the Foleo?
Stewart Midwinter
PDA user since 1992 (Sharp PC-3100)
Palm TX
Like any of you really know....
I don't get it...none of you has used it! I remember hearing the same sort of detractions regarding the Wii (although not here of course): PS3 was going to kick it's ass, Nintendo was irrelevant and for 10-year olds, etc.
I also remember thinking how cool the user interface and usability seemed though, and that all the self-proclaimed "hardcore", expert gamers and pundits were underestimating such a revolutionary feature. Just like many of the people here talking about the laptops they can get for the same relative amount of money as the Foleo, these folks were focused on the PS3's raw power vs. the lack there of in the Wii.
I definately qualify as an executive needing immediate access to a full keyboard, web, documents, remote file access, Log Me In, etc. Just because many of you don't fall into that category, doesn't mean there aren't a ton of us out there that can get some real utility out of a product like this.
I'd take the product as is, but the linux operating system and multimedia that is no doubt possible is just great icing on the cake...
If it does perform well, most of you will either ignore it, or wait for the next Treo to proclaim the death of Palm...get over yourselves, your comments have never been that clever anyway.
RE: Like any of you really know....
And cost analysis.
Oh.
Yeah.
That.
Executive.
RE: Like any of you really know....
Anyway, I too am interested in Foleo, especially since I am the executive of my own sole proprietorship. I hope it pans out too.
But, you have to realize that the few that have remained loyal to Palm, and invested significantly in the platform are a bit disappointed. Tommorrow, I will awake to my new Treo's "Pilot 1000" midi alarms. I will try to cut and paste more than 1K of info from my new Treo, but it will choke it. I will at some point press the d-pad and the device will be frozen in NVFS lag soup. My 1200mah powered, tiny screened, fat, and barely fast enough smartfone will beg for a charger to follow me all day, all while HVGA screened, monster processing first generation iPhones fly flambouyantly by. I'll enjoy changing from a note within the OEM PIM apps, but not be able to return to the same place after switching apps, this from the company who wrote the specs on how "properly written" apps should function. I will wait 5 times longer than I should to get my web pages, b/c the ancient OS is not fit for modern GSM broadband architecture. All this from the company that recently held a 70%+ marketshare of the PDA marketplace.
I really doubt anyone around here is wanting to be negative for negatives sake. Palm has done a pretty good job of supplying that lately anyway. My hunch is that remaining holdouts are a bit embarrassed that their vote of confidence went to a company that puts in VGA cams while the competitors are from 2-5mpx, and the list could go on. Others like myself, were instantly taken by the Palm user experience, only to watch that experience deteriorate. We are hoping against hope for success, but the "T5+ Frankengarnet+ Cobalt+ Palmsource+ 32MBRam+ NoNewTreos4Ever+ LowVolume+ PitifulSignals+ NoWiFi+ NoHVGA+ NoCrippledTX+ 4KMemos+ 700PUpdates+ 2.5mmAudio+ CancelledPDALines+ HawkinsNextBigThing+ Gandolph Smackdown" has cynacized even the best of em'.
As they say in the financial services world "past performance is no guarantee of future expectations". Well, around here that's what most are hoping for. Unfortunately as pappaw used to say "I'll believe it when I see it". That is more like the attitude that remains concerning the Foleo.
JMO
Pat Horne
RE: Like any of you really know....
PIC, for seemingly a long time now, has clearly been taken over by the most cynical, self righteous group of nerds I've ever encountered online
If so, it's because we were loyal to Palm for so long and they (you?) made us so cynical.
I have at times been known to be cynical, self righteous, or a nerd - but never all three at once.
I don't get it...none of you has used it!
No, but I've carried ultraportable laptops... I've typed on laptops... I've used many OSes other than Windows... I've used purpose-built OSes. Even without using it, I think I know how it's going to feel to type on it and hold it. I would expect the browser to be no better than Opera on Linux and no worse than Blazer on PalmOS. I would expect mail on Foleo to be no better than Thunderbird on Linux and no worse than Versamail. I know what file transfers are like over bluetooth.
re: Nintendo Wii - I think everyone found the controllers innovative. Kudos to Nintendo for discovering that there were 10 casual gamers for every 1 "hardcore" gamer who cared more about anti-aliasing and number of polygons.
I definately qualify as an executive needing immediate access to a full keyboard, web, documents, remote file access, Log Me In, etc. Just because many of you don't fall into that category, doesn't mean there aren't a ton of us out there that can get some real utility out of a product like this.
So, what you're telling us is that you already carry your laptop with a cellular data card as well as a blackberry/treo with you everywhere, and you look forward to carrying a Foleo in your bag as well?
If so, then maybe I can see how you could trade your laptop in for a powerful desktop and use your foleo as a VNC or RDP client to your desktop instead of having your laptop with you all the time.
I think things get interesting when you focus on web applications and email as the primary means of communication and productivity. Then, you don't need that desktop at home or work, you can use any device that has a good browser and mail client, and then the foleo starts looking like a giant iPhone with a keyboard.
If it does perform well, most of you will either ignore it, or wait for the next Treo to proclaim the death of Palm...
If Palm would have released a 320x480 Treo 2 or 3 years ago, and if Palm would have created a Cobalt-based PDA, and if Palm would have released a Linux-based PDA/Phone last year... then perhaps the Foleo reception here would be different.
We waited so long, offered so much free advice to Palm, got so little, and were so patient... Foleo isn't what we *begged* Palm for. Foleo doesn't piss me off as much as the fact that... we waited all this time for... a Linux laptop?!
Oh, and for the record, Palm died shortly after the release of the Tungsten T|3
get over yourselves, your comments have never been that clever anyway.
Are you kidding?? The comments are the best part of this site! There is so much experience, wisdom, and insight liberally sprinkled in the rantings of the regulars here. Kind of reminds me of the glory days of the message boards on F*ckedcompany.com
USR Palm Pilot 1000 --> Palm Pilot Professional --> TRG SuperPilot --> Palm IIIc --> Palm V --> Palm M505 --> Palm M515 --> Tungsten T|2 --> Treo 600 --> LifeDrive --> iPhone
RE: Like any of you really know....
If it's easy to use, small and attractive, it will sell. Probably won't be an out-of-the-park success like the Wii, but it likely won't be a miserable failure either.
RE: Like any of you really know....
This has what to do with whether or not the Foleo is a good product that will be successful?
"Wow. The first time I have seen an entire user community flamed. Mercy triumphs over judgement there Treo007."
Oooo...please show me 'mercy'!!! What will become of me! Besides, I didn't flame the ENTIRE community (although it might seem like it around here), just the ones who...well, I think it's pretty clear which ones.
RE: Like any of you really know....
No, because it's big and heavy, slow to boot, frequently crashes, and always runs out of battery power just when I need it. Other than that, it's a really useful tool!
You might now see why I think the Folio is an idea who's time has come....at least for a bigger percentage of the market than the "experts" here think.
RE: Like any of you really know....
Nothing, but it's a very good explanation as to why Palm's long-time fans have become rather jaded about the company's devices.
I get really sick of the bitching too. But I can certainly see why it occurs.
RE: Like any of you really know....
For the same reasons that crowds swarm in to here Jobs announcement of a new Apple Phone. What a company, a nation, a person, or a pet does in the past often indicates what it will probably do in the future.
Pat Horne
RE: Like any of you really know....
First you say,
I definately qualify as an executive needing immediate access to a full keyboard, web, documents, remote file access, Log Me In, etc.
then in response to my saying..
-- "So, what you're telling us is that you already carry your laptop with a cellular
-- data card as well as a blackberry/treo with you everywhere, and you look forward to
-- carrying a Foleo in your bag as well?"
you say:
No, because it's big and heavy, slow to boot, frequently crashes, and always runs out of battery power just when I need it. Other than that, it's a really useful tool!
Therefore, I can only conclude that you DO NEED immediate access to a full keyboard, web, documents, remote file access, Log Me In, etc. Because if you did need immediate access, you'd be carrying around a laptop today.
But seriously... I look at the Foleo as not a revolutionary product, but more of an evolutionary one. Laptops exist. People have them. Windows mostly works. People are accustomed to it. People *like* the functionality of their laptop.
Along comes the Foleo. It's a simpler, purpose-built laptop, smaller, and somewhat cheaper. It's a decent thin client laptop for the enterprise (except where's the rdp, x11, vnc, NX, SGD, Citrix, XDMCP remote access client??).
For consumers, the big question will be: is it different enough from $OLD_LAPTOP, $CURRENT_LAPTOP, or $NEW_LAPTOP to make people want to buy it? If the product differentiator is instant on, it may have a hard time convincing people that their current laptop which does more needs to be replaced by a Foleo instead of a new laptop because it "comes out of suspend" a few seconds faster.
I think a more interesting angle for the Foleo would be to use it purely as a thin client and store no or very limited data on it, and have the thing encrypted and password protected so that companies would see the benefit of not needing to license antivirus, anti-spyware, firewall, enterprise software tracking agents, etc. I swear Sarbanes Oxley is going to be the death of tech innovation in the US, but that's a rant for another site.
Honestly, I think I'd like the Foleo better if it didn't rely on a Treo. Can you stuff a cellular data card in one? Can you sync it with an iPhone? Can you use it as a companionless companion?
USR Palm Pilot 1000 --> Palm Pilot Professional --> TRG SuperPilot --> Palm IIIc --> Palm V --> Palm M505 --> Palm M515 --> Tungsten T|2 --> Treo 600 --> LifeDrive --> iPhone
RE: Like any of you really know....
I hear you, but keep in mind that this runs an entirely different OS, not POS 5.xxx.
That, in and of itself, deserves a second look. It certainly doesn't merit scorn.
And if what you said is true regarding past behavior dictating future results, you should be anxiously awaiting this device.
Hawkins has a history of creating things that no one thought they needed before, but wind up not being able to live without. If it weren't true, you wouldn't still be using his creations.
Palm the company unfortunately has a way of somewhat screwing up the wheels he's set in motion. I'll give you that.
If you're worried about them (Palm) ultimately doing that with his most recent creation, that's one thing. But it doesn't mean it won't be a great product day 1 for a lot of people.
Go ahead, you know you guys want to give it a chance. Try some positive thinking. It won't kill you, and you might actually feel better.
RE: Like any of you really know....
The Foleo is no guarantee of a crash-free world...
To this day I get resets quite often on my TX when I try to use VersaMail or Blazer. Palm never delivered a patch for the TX. Not one.
I am not a Treo user (Pearl here), but the issue of the patch for Treos was right down ridiculous.
I am willing to bet good money that the Foleo will see the same fate as the LifeDrive. Was the LifeDrive a "bad product"? Nos precisely, it just didn't had enough users to survive.
FWIW, I do think the Foleo is a dumb idea. Why spend 500 dollars for a crippled laptop? Because of "instant on"? Sure enough Windows has managed to make maintaining a PC a living hell, but then again Palm doesn't has stellar record of bug-free software.
RE: Like any of you really know....
Sure enough Windows has managed to make maintaining a PC a living hell....
Amen to that!
[rant] Because of all of the freaking add-on software I have to run to keep my Windows machines running, and the massive bloat of the system to start with, I have to buy high-end hardware in the first place, then get to wait forever for a complete boot up (and don't dare try to start anything until it's done!) and still have plenty of instability issues. One crash and half of the junk in the sys tray is gone because all that junk got brought down. Try to run without it, or reboot? Which will it be? Yeah, I can hear it now: "Upgrade to Vista and you won't have those problems." What? And have to buy yet another round of higher end hardware? Do everything I can to support the locking down of everything by the embedded DRM? No thanks. I'm doing my best to get out of that rat race. [/rant]
Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/
RE: Like any of you really know....
And the lightweight form factor, combined with a full-size keyboard which very few devices in that size category have.
'Tis overpriced, but it's not a 'dumb idea'.
(OT) Like any of you really know....
Sure enough Windows has managed to make maintaining a PC a living hell....
And you aren't the only one thinking so. Check out what PC Magazine editor-in-chief Jim Louderback says about Vista as he steps down from his position:
I've been a big proponent of the new OS over the past few months, even going so far as loading it onto most of my computers and spending hours tweaking and optimizing it. So why, nine months after launch, am I so frustrated? The litany of what doesn't work and what still frustrates me stretches on endlessly.
...
I could go on and on about the lack of drivers, the bizarre wake-up rituals, the strange and nonreproducible system quirks, and more. But I won't bore you with the details. The upshot is that even after nine months, Vista just ain't cutting it. I definitely gave Microsoft too much of a free pass on this operating system: I expected it to get the kinks worked out more quickly. Boy, was I fooled! If Microsoft can't get Vista working, I might just do the unthinkable: I might move to Linux.
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,2171472,00.asp
Seems, among other things, that he has a beef with how "sleep mode" doesn't work right. So I suppose if Palm can get the Foleo's instant on/off to work right, they'll be doing better than Vista.
Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/
Archives, etc
Most people tend to misjudge the nature of the internet 'revolution' -- shorter attention spans, blogs, etc. Yet this has been true throughout history, people since the beginning of time were more prone to recite catch phrases and run their mouths rather stop and think. We are obviously just as lonely, and just as much in denial of our loneliness, as we always have been.
So, kind of brushing aside these COMPARATIVE (people seeing everything as a better or worse version of what they ALREADY HAVE) clamorings for 'smaller devices', more connectivity (less loneliness), brighter colors (people have always been obsessing over these things for eons) the real interesting thing about the widespread adoption of computers (not cell phones, reminders, game boys, but things with real input and real, usable memory), and their omnipresence, starting with the laptop and kind of refined by the foleo, is a massive, restructurable, searchable, linkable TEXTUAL archive, a kind of super-journal. Imagine touch typers -- who can probably type as fast as they talk, authough the writing is vastly different, since one can go back and edit -- carrying around the foleo, writing as they always do, but the documents are now instantly retreivable, ageless, and instant, interlinked -- so that there is almost no notion of time, epochs, etc. but almost like a huge pool of ideas.
I don't know, I have yet to experience it -- I still carry a journal. But I'm drooling with exitement at the possibility of not only writing in this archive, but organizing it not only in an intellectual sense but also via various scripts that search or organize the archive.
RE: Archives, etc
Uh... that's Palm target audience for the Flopeo in case you haven't noticed.
Oh, that's right, you haven't noticed.
RE: Archives, etc
Foleo is marketed as a Mobile Companion for your Treo and is targeted at those who occasionally need a bigger screen and keyboard for the tasks you might ordinarily do on your smartphone - without having to lug around + contend with the bulk & bloat of a full laptop. In no way is it targeted at the mass-market.
Wakey-wakey, Mikey!
Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680
RE: Archives, etc
If you got out of your rubber room more, you'd see how many fekkin people are banging away on Sidekicks. Messaging is messaging, eejit.
Back to your corner and drool quietly.
RE: Archives, etc
Here's a quote from James Kendrick's blog, where he had a chat with Palm about Foleo at the Digital Experience conference:
# I'm not the target customer because I want to do more than extend my smartphone.
# The target customer is "the mobile professional". Folks in sales, IT and other enterprise areas that are on the go and occasionally need more than a smartphone to see the latest sales figures in Excel or need to hammer out an e-mail that would take too much time on a small QWERTY keypad.
# The core competencies of the machine are to tackle the three items that mobile professionals need the most: e-mail, Internet capabilities and document management. It's not meant to be a be full and complex computing experience.
# I suggested then that the target audience is "not consumers, but enterprise". The response was "we're targeting the Foleo to the mobile professional".
Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680
Online apps no substitute for local ones
Users: Huh? I thought you said that it was a smartphone companion? This sounds more like its own platform.
Palm: It is a platform. It also has an Opera browser.
Users: Then what do you need the apps for? Why not just use Web mail and Google Docs and Spreadsheets?
Who is asking that? That's a stupid question. The internet (and especially wireless internet) is not and never will be 100% reliable. Web mail and Google Docs are a handy addition to having built-in apps, not a replacement. Plus, do you really want to trust someone else with keeping all your documents, emails etc safe? I use Gmail, but I also keep local copies of all of it.
RE: Online apps no substitute for local ones
There are few things that fall into the category of "100% reliable", certainly not laptops or operating systems. I get your point though, what you really mean is "reliable enough to be used for business".
I think reliability is already *good enough* in fixed networks (it certainly is in Australia anyway). To me the issue is speed and latency, although those things will become less and less of a problem in decades to come (in wireless networks too).
IMHO there will be a market for the Foleo, and you might expect that Palm will sell a few hundred thousand of these globally in the first year. I just hope it's enough to encourage further development.
I'm extremely happy that someone is working on a fast, snappy OS - it seems long overdue. I'm confident that if Palm can create a big-enough initial market, developers will jump on board and create excellent applications that will make the platform enviable.
I think Palm realise that if the platform is developed enough, the potential market size will eclipse that of their smart phone sales, and certainly be much much bigger than traditional PDAs.
I will probably buy one of these just out of curiosity. 'Tis interesting anyway.
RE: Online apps no substitute for local ones
For (most) consumers the Foleo is just too expensive to justify. Of the people I know or have known that gave up PDA's most said they didn't like having to carry it around or have it clipped to their belt. How handy will the Foleo be when it will be more cumbersome to carry then a PDA? In my job I carry both a laptop and a Palm TX (of which I bought myself, company only would spring for Pocket PC devices). The TX gets used 90% of the time and the laptop is usually in the trunk.
My recommendation to Palm is to drop the price to $349 - $399 and market this to schools and consumers. I can see where this would be a great asset for a school district. The students wouldn't be watching YouTube either. Of course having a IT Director for a school district in the family I can tell you that Palm will run into a problem here as well. Most school districts want their students to be running the same software that they will run out in the "real world" and of course that always means it had better be made by Microsoft.
Given all that, I have no idea who is going to buy this but a select few.
PDA's Past and Present:
Palm - IIIxe, Vx, M500, M505, Tungsten T, TX
Handspring - Edge, Platinum, Deluxe
Sony - SJ22
Apple - MP110, MP2000, MP2100
RE: Online apps no substitute for local ones
As much as I would love to ditch my notebook, I need the processing power and Windows o/s.
rpa
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What the future will bring...
But unfortunately, life is not about good ideas: it's about which ideas seem good. And for many people, a full-fledged Wintel laptop on which they process their little notes in Word seem like a good idea.
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FoleoCentral is the news, opinions & review blog about the Palm Foleo Mobile Companion