Rumor: m505's USB Problems Explained
Recently, evidence began to surface that m505's have a USB-related problem. Many users have complained that their handheld has suddenly stopped HotSyncing with their USB cradle, though they can still use a serial one. Palm recently admitted to Cnet that this problem exists and said that the company will replace the defective units on a case-by-case basis.
A Level 2 Tech Support person for Palm was willing to give out more information on the condition that his name not be released. The following are his comments in his own words.
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The m505 definitely has a manufacturing problem, though it is a subtle one that was easy to miss when it was first built.
Several months back all the level 2 tech support reps in our center got an email from someone who had just got back from visiting Palm headquarters and discussed the problem with a senior engineer there.
Turns out that the way the m505 is built, a static charge can build up over time and fry the USB chip on the inside. When the internal USB chip goes bad, it disrupts all native USB connections. Serial connections are not affected. Since the problem is internal to the Palm, Windows and Mac users both may run into problems.
Basically, USB native devices have a chip inside that identifies that component when it tries to communicate. Should that chip stop working, no USB ID can be transmitted. That's why serial communication is unaffected. Older units used a USB adapter on a serial cradle. Those were never truly a full USB native connection because they did not have a chip like this.
If some people are wondering why most m505 owners don't see a problem, and the ones who do may go for months without a problem, it all depends upon the amount of static charge in your location. Palm hadn't noticed this originally because they don't have much static where they build and test the devices but discovered it as soon as the first units came in for repair. I think this also explains why something that is normally rare can happen to someone multiple times: if the area the person is in has more of a static build up (which is also happening as the weather changes) they would run into this more often than other people would.
This might be more of an issue with m505 units than m500 or m125 units because the component in an m505 are packed tighter together to cram everything into such a small space. On the other hand, it could also be that we haven't heard about it on the m500 or m125 models as much because the former didn't sell very well and he latter has only been out for a month or so. It's also possible that Palm identified the specific problem and fixed it in the m125, considering that it had been known about for months before that unit was launched.
The person who sent out the email to level two agents got into trouble for letting the rest of us know. Palm management doesn't want anyone officially talking about a "static problem" considering the threatened lawsuit from the people who say that Palm is responsible for frying their computers (which, to the best of our knowledge anyway, is complete nonsense). We got the idea pretty quickly not to talk about the issue with callers in anything but the most vague ways and not to admit any "known issues" with anything. If someone calls up with the problem we are to treat it like any other unit that may have failed for an unknown reason.
This is not a conduit or software problem (though there certainly can be problems with those that appear to be the same problem but can be fixed with a clean reinstall), nor is it a cradle problem. People who have heard tech supports reps say this either misinterpreted what they heard, talked to reps in one of the centers that didn't get the email, or are dealing with someone who likes to lie to customers to try to make them feel more secure. I also think the rumor that Palm was going to recall the units is another case of an uninformed rep who likes to sound knowledgable but doesn't know his Palm from the back of his hand.
I can't see how an OS upgrade or anything like that could fix the problem, and I have not heard that Palm was looking into this as a solution. Any agent who says that a software fix is coming is either lying, horribly confused, or has way better information than I do (which is unlikely). I'd go for confused. They probably heard that OS 4.1 was coming out and assumed that'd do something to help.
I recommend people try to minimize the static build up near the cradle. If a problem does develop, demand a free serial cradle and that replacement units be sent ahead of time instead of sending their m505 in first and waiting possibly several weeks for a replacement to be available.
Keep in mind that several people jump to the conclusion that they have a problem like this without fully testing everything else first. Underpowered hubs could cause something like this, corrupted USB drivers would show similar symptoms and lots of other gremlins could pop up. I also suspect that the problem isn't as prevalent as some people think, because some agents wouldn't know how to fix all of these potential problems and others (the ones who got the email) just assume it must be this problem even if it's not.
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RE: Not to pick on Hal, BUT...
www.palmstation.com/view_article.py?article=4833&flat_mode=1
RE: Not to pick on Hal, BUT...
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News Editor
What if I get this problem...
RE: What if I get this problem...
Can we put this information to productive use ?
Can the cradle be connected somehow to allow the static discharge to be prevented ?
static cling
spraying your floor at home and at work with static guard or rubbing it with fabric softener sheets may work, but it'll be pretty temporary, and you should probably remember to discharge the static you've built up anyway, just in case.
just my $.50.
RE: Can we put this information to productive use ?
So, is it my cradle????
RE: So, is it my cradle????
Screw Palm
RE: Screw Palm
Sounds like BS
RE: Sounds like BS
Still Sounds like BS
RE: Sounds like BS
''Grounding before Cradling''
RE: Sounds like BS
I don't want to have to worry about doing this every time I friggin cradle my Palm!!! What the hell is this?? Are we still in the age of the vacuum tube???
[/quote]
I don't want to have to worry about taking a dump every morning. C'est la vie! Oh and those were the good old days the "Age of the Vacum tube". ESD, is very real, look it up.
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"Some people just can't handle it, or they handle it to often."
RE: Sounds like BS
Thanks for nothing, Palm.
One has to wonder why so many customers had to spend unnecessary time and effort trying to resolve a known problem when Palm could have just admitted the problem and sent customers a serial cable with an apology and/or refund offer. Instead, customers wasted time and effort and customer service wasted time and effort. I'm appalled.
It's clear from the message that Palm m505 users will not see a solution soon or, probably ever. If this is a design flaw, Palm will take a big financial hit if they have to replace a lot of these units.
Thanks for something, Palm
However, I am encouraged that a support engineer at Palm, Inc. believed enough in the company and its products to risk disciplinary action by providing this factual and detailed explanation of the problem.
If the HotSync operations suddenly fail for the Palm m505 and USB cradle I use for development purposes, I now know to find a serial cradle and test the HotSync operation to determine if that chip has gone bad.
I won't be pleased about the design flaw... but relieved to know how to resolve it. I'll also be much more willing to forgive the inconvenience.
Thanks for the explanation! Palm Management could learn a thing or two from you.
Is there an ELECTRICAL ENGINEER in the house?
RE: Is there an ELECTRICAL ENGINEER in the house?
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When you find yourself in the company of a halfling and an ill-tempered Dragon, remember, you do not have to outrun the Dragon...you just have to outrun the halfling.
RE: Is there an ELECTRICAL ENGINEER in the house?
http://www.pstec.de/ppp/
RE: Is there an ELECTRICAL ENGINEER in the house?
In designing we could have added a dedicated USB static protection device for about 90 cents that would probably totally prevent this problem. To save some money we just added some resistors to ground which help prevent any charge build-up. This does not offer any real protection from the device get zapped from the outside.
I do not know if Palm added these resistors or exactly what they did. The data sheet for the part does not show or suggest any type of static protection, so it is up to the designer to think of this and include some type of protection.
RE: Is there an ELECTRICAL ENGINEER in the house?
Mine died today
JBH
Update
Anybody want a refurbished m505? ;)
JBH
RE: Mine died today
So we pay NEW prices but get REFURBISHED products?
RE: Mine died today
I'm now waiting for replacement No. 2. Palm agreed to advance ship. If palm is listening, if there is no return shipping label in the package, you will get the defective Palm back either COD, or not at all. Damned if I'm paying another penny to anyone in order to get a functional Palm. I paid over $25 for shipping and insurance last time. Screw you.
RE: Mine died today
Hey Ed, please let us know ...
And everyone was so quick to blame DELL!!!!!
RE: Hey Ed, please let us know ...
it looks like palm is having some serious issues with the design of the M50x handheld, but as long as they respond and fix the problem.
now my story. I had ordered my palm 3/19/01 when the first went on sale.
It died via this problem on 7/18/01, they did a advanced replacement, i got the replacement in a day or two and i went on.
then on 10/10/01 it died again. once again, advance replacement, i got the replacement in a day or two and i went on.
then on 10/19/01 the replacement died. UGH. once again, advance replacement, i got the replacement in a day or two and i went on.
however, they told me my "free support" runs out soon (oct 31, 2001), but if they have to replace the unit again, i will get a new one.
now my problem is that, obviously, i have a set-up which is prone to this behavior. They have offered me no solution to this problem.
Palm, if you are listening, i just want you to support your product. I'm not saying that you have to remove every bug from every product before shipping it, but... once a problem is evident, i expect it fixed. Especially, if the "bug" stops the unit from working.
Thanks!
The straw that broke the camel's back?
where are the flamers?!?
C'mon, all you jerks who flamed me! Flame every m505 user with a dead Palm out there for not grounding themselves! Where are your teeth now, huh? I guess maybe some of you have dead m505's, too, huh? Not so unheard of when the shoe's on the other foot, is it?
To all the people that flamed me...
Bite me.
-Greg
RE: where are the flamers?!?
ALL YOU M505 OWNERS WHO DON'T GROUND YOURSELVES BEFORE TOUCHING YOUR CRADLE, ESPECIALLY THE ONES WHO GET SHOCKED BY THE CRADLE, YOU HAVE NOBODY BUT YOURSELVES TO BLAME!
Nyah nyah nyah!
That better?
Actually, the ones who went on shocking themselves and are complaining now... gawd... that's like a guy I knew who had racing carbs on his Porsche, and because he didn't race it carbon deposits built up, so every now and then the engine caught fire. He kept an extinguisher in the car so he could put it out when that happened...
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Not to pick on Hal, BUT...
Also, I wonder if this issue is indirectly related to my m505 "sudden battery death syndrome"???